Gen Z's fight for democracy

We've talked about generational politics on the show before with episodes on Millennials and Baby Boomers. This week, we turn our focus to Gen Z, those born from the late 1990s to early 2000s. This generation's formative experiences include school shootings, a global pandemic, and reckonings with racial and economic inequality.

In his book Fight: How Gen Z is Channeling Their Fear and Passion to Save America, John Della Volpe argues that Gen Z has not buckled under the weight of the events that shaped them. Rather,  they have organized around the issues America has left unsolved, from gun control to racial and environmental justice to economic inequality, becoming more politically engaged than their elders were at their age and showing a unique willingness to disrupt the status quo.

Della Volpe joins us this week to unpack what he's learned from thousands of conversations with members of Gen Z and what this generation's growing power means for the 2024 election and beyond. Della Volpe is the director of polling at the Harvard Kennedy School Institute of Politics, where he has led the institute’s polling initiatives on understanding American youth since 2000.

Fight: How Gen Z is Channeling Their Fear and Passion to Save America

John Della Volpe on Substack

Chris Beem
From the McCourtney Institute for Democracy at Penn State University, I'm Chris Beem.

Candis Watts Smith 
I'm Candis Watts Smith.

Jenna Spinelle
I'm Jenna Spinelle, and welcome to Democracy Works. This week, our guest is John Della Volpe, the director of polling at the Harvard Kennedy School Institute of Politics, where he runs the Harvard youth poll. He's also the author of the book Fight: How Gen Z is Channeling their Fear and Passion to Save America. So this conversation, as you might guess, is all about Gen Z. We've talked before on the show about boomers about millennials, but never explicitly about Gen Z, the events that shape their political ideology, and how they're tackling some of the challenges that their generation confront. So excited to have John here for this conversation.

Chris Beem
I just want to start with the the kind of negative portrayal that this generation gets and you know, and some of it is not, you know, it's not didn't fall out of the sky, right? I mean, there is, I don't think there's a prof in any college in America who can't tell you a story about a student who didn't do the work, didn't show up, and then comes after grades have been announced and says, No, this is not acceptable. I have to get a better grade. There's no argument. There's no, you know, contention that they deserve. It's just no, I need this. And then there's always stories of helicopter parents too. And so that is something you know, that is part of this generation, and that you hear a lot about in in the media, Jonathan Hite talks about the current generation, etc. But here, we're getting another story and one that is equally Oh, no, no, that's not true. That is, it's significantly more important at both for both in terms of empirical reality, and also in terms of it the implications and the importance. So yeah, it's a great, it's a really, I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

Candis Watts Smith 
So you know, one of the things I think even about that story, is that about that kind of Gen Z or the grade grabbing Gen Z, or is that that easy story to tell is the story that we always tell about entitlement and snowflakes and all of these things. The other perhaps, heartache slash unpopular opinion of my own, is that we could also read that same grade grabbing tendency as a larger symptom. Like, whatever fears of the job market students have, or, you know, whatever, I don't know, I mean, I teach at a place where if a student gets a B plus one, B plus they cannot graduate with honors. So they have a lot of anxiety around these issues. So they're grade grabbing sometimes is because they are fearful that they are not going to get into med school, or law school or business school or whatever, whether they're right or wrong is one thing, but I do think that there is another side to the story, which is why I really appreciate this book in this work, because it talks about like, okay, you know, we see these tendencies, but what do they mirror? What do they tell us about a larger set of structural issues that this group is facing that we really need to take seriously and understand why they might be oriented towards policy, politics, democracy, capitalism, protests, you know, working in or outside of traditional modes of political behavior is not just because they have decided amongst themselves to misbehave, but instead because they are responding to the structure that they have to navigate.

Chris Beem
Well, and not just the structure, but also for John, the most defining feature is trauma, right that this generation has experienced, he says more trauma in their young lives at any any generation since you know, the silent generation of war of the Depression and World War Two. And and so, you know, you have a generation that is uniquely experiencing depression and anxiety. And you know, I mean, the most arresting statistic in here is that 24% of Zoomers have a thought about self harm. I mean, that is one it for my goodness. And so that you know, and you know, we're talking about the, you know, children or young adults who you know, all through their lives right before they even reach consciousness. You had 911 Then you had the great recession housing crisis. You had COVID, you had the Trump presidency, you had George Floyd, you had event after event that really just marked a different condition in which they grew up where nothing else school shootings, How can I forget that parkland, etc. So if they grew up in a world where nothing was safe, where everything was dangerous, or you know, far more dangerous than it was from, for, say, my generation growing up, and that is, you know, where you start by understanding in turn, if you want to understand this generation.

Candis Watts Smith 
So the reason why it's important that we focus on just generations over over time. One is because generational trends are one of the most major one of the most important mechanisms of social change over time. And scholars who study generational cohorts recognizes that groups, right come into the, you know, come into a particular set of circumstances that come of age and a particular historical moment and those events, and that context can shape the way that they view the world that they think about their political attitudes, their orientation toward really big ideas and structures, institutions, families, you know, capitalism, democracy, ideology, so on and so forth.

Jenna Spinelle
Yeah. So I think that that lays out some of the conditions and the background of Gen Z very well. And John obviously has a lot more insights to share from his work with the youth poll, and that he talks about in his book. So let's go to the interview.

Jenna Spinelle
John Della Volpe, welcome to Democracy Works. Thanks for joining us today.

John Della Volpe 
It is great to be here. Thanks for having me, Jenna.

Jenna Spinelle
So I wonder if you could start off just by reminding us of the events in history that have shaped Gen Z's political identity, political consciousness, and maybe how those effects have shaped that political identity.

John Della Volpe 
Sure, so I've been just study young Americans generally since since 2000. Right? So that includes all of the millennials, and now a good a good portion of Gen Z. So that perspective is really helpful, I think, and kind of, you know, and some comparisons, and what I argue is that I don't think there's been any generation. And 75 years since the greatest generation, who's dealt with more trauma more quickly. Before Neuroscience tells us that the human brain is mature, which is generally age of 25, then this generation Gen Z, and I think that impact so much of, of who they are, who they want to be, and and their views of this country, just give you one example to start, you know, when I talk about millennials, you know, and I think the the broad definition of like a Gen Z or versus a millennial to me, is beyond like the years in which you were born is do you have a working memory of not allowing it more specifically September 12, or September 13? When we came together as as a nation? And if the answer is yes, you're a millennial. If the answer is it's a little fuzzy, maybe as millennial, like my oldest, my three? And an answer is no, I think pretty squarely in that Gen Z bucket, which means that they don't have that memory of coming together. They don't have really any memory of seeing America at our best or United. So that impacts their view of patriotism, exceptionalism, democracy, but then we we look through, you know, the last, you know, 15 years or so under our lives, where I think that's been met with this constant basically kind of disquieting chaos. You know, for many Zoomers, their first riff is somewhat hazy, family memory may be more stressful than others, you know, when we had so many so many Americans dealing with the impact of the Great Recession a percent of Americans lost 20% of their net wealth, very stressful time. Gen Z ers are then heading into inter school elementary school where and again, there should be some some safety and some Have some feeling of security and of course, it's anything but you know, regardless of who you are, or what party might be affiliated and later in life, you're sitting sitting on our desks, you know, preparing for these readings or school shooter drills, before they can even process this. By time, the middle school age and high school age, sadly, they're dealing with far more far more death, you know, from opioids, or suicide or shootings. And certainly I dealt with when I was their age. And that's before we really kind of count the totals of concerns about climate, white nationalism, systemic racism, and of course, COVID. So it's been a pretty challenging decade or two for all of us. But I think even more challenging for Gen Z.

Jenna Spinelle
Yeah. And it's interesting, you mentioned that they did not witness that national, that moment of national unity that came after 911. But yeah, you also describe Gen Z as more empathetic than previous generations. So I wonder where that sense of empathy comes from.

John Della Volpe 
I do think that's one of the key characteristics of Gen Z. And when I would ask them and in town halls and focus groups, why you vote, I would hear, I would, I would hear, because I voted for my great grandmother who didn't have the right to vote, or voted for that DACA recipient, or environment to protect the rights of somebody in like, as soon as they were turning 18, I felt like they were just alternative kind of protect those more vulnerable than themselves. Right, I wouldn't blame them with all the trauma and chaos I described for them to essentially kind of be checking out, because sort of only about themselves. But this this, this sense of empathy, I think it comes from a couple different places, I think, one, it comes from seeing, again, those cohorts within their generation that society has marginalized in some way, you know, through race or some sort of gender identity that might be kind of different than than the norm. And seeing those struggles firsthand, I think kind of builds empathy. Right one. And then I also think, we talked so much as we should I think about the challenges and the detriments associated with social media. And I also think there is an element of connected element where people can see others in their, in their struggles, and try to identify themselves in some way. So I think those are a couple of elements. And, of course, you know, it's what's what's what's interesting and intriguing is, obviously the parents have a responsibility, and a role in this that such a Gen X parents, they may not vote, they might not vote the same way as their kids do. And when it most of them, many of them don't. But they certainly did instill some sense of empathy.

Jenna Spinelle
Yeah, you know, thinking about the Gen X parents. And even further back to Boomer generations you invoke when thinking about the older generations, the shining city on a hill, and how Gen Z very much does not share that view of America, or really starts to question the idea of American exceptionalism even and so I wonder if you can say more about their vision of the American dream or, you know, what, what America means to them, what what it conjures when you ask them and these town halls and focus groups and things? 

John Della Volpe 
Yeah, and and this is, this is important nuance, I think, because I don't think there are so many, you'll, you'll find it a survey, you know, when there's a measure, and we do it at Harvard, and through my other work in social sphere, as well as relative levels of patriotism, and love for the country, those sorts of things. And there's always a headline, typically on Fox News saying, you know, younger Americans aren't patriotic. But I think that's just a very different definition of patriotism, than an overly politicized, a definition of patriotism, then they're comfortable with. And they argue, and I believe that questioning America, that again, they don't see America, at our best, is a form of patriotism. And they're using every tool, I think in their civic toolbox, to, to volunteer, to vote, to organize the protest, to do anything that they can to, to make America kind of fulfill its potential. And they and we're going to market exceptionalism. They question the role that we can have setting on the moral stage, you know, if there's so much inequality in systemic racism and those sorts of things on our own shores, and there's question how much credibility we have in that. So that's, I think, some of the Some of the important nuance and background regarding their definition of the American dream. I think it's, it's, it's, it's simple, and frankly, perhaps more mature than then many might expect. I asked this question a lot in a variety of different ways I might ask about best life or good life or, you know, what you aspire to. And it's a simple things that I think younger people really are interested in pursuing, you know, they recognize and they're able to talk about stress, anxiety, the challenges, mental health wise, that so many of them are facing. And they understand that at a very young age, right. Second thing they understand is that I think they, they work to live, rather, and rather than living to work, which means that they're trying to, to find something to do the work that they're there, they can be passionate about, it could be anything, you know, it could be anything, it could be any skill, or delivery of service, or product or just hard work, they want to feel good about their work. But they also know that it's credibly important to save time, you know, for friends, family, pursuing other interests, etc. I mean, those two or three characteristics, it takes so many of us like decades, if we can ever find that balance. And that is really what I think younger people think about when they when they when they think about the American dream.

Jenna Spinelle
I want to go back to what you were saying about patriotism, then the kind of splashy articles that come out, I think we've also seen similar splashes about young American support for democracy. I'm thinking about the Yasha monk study, which I'm sure you're familiar with, they came out some years ago, and there have been others since. So how do you fit, you know, attitudes and support for democracy? Is that the same thing? You were saying? There's kind of a lack of trust or a lack of validation that that might be perhaps behind some of that?

John Della Volpe 
Well, I think I think it's, I think about I think about that I think about capital, I think I think about democracy. And I think about capitalism. And I think the question is, like, How well has it been working for us? Right, you know, and it's not the I don't think it's a rejection of democracy. I don't think it's a rejection of capitalism. I don't think it's a rejection of the representative government is that they want to make sure that it lives up to its its definition, to provide opportunities for Americans. And, and they believe in a kind of an a, an a robust government to solve solve some of the systemic challenges. But obviously, at the same time, they have failing grades when they ask about, you know, our institution. So I think it's just much more nuanced. And I think, I think just because people question capitalism, doesn't mean they're socialist. If they question democracy free, it doesn't mean they're looking for authoritarian or sort of government. Although there certainly are some, there certainly are cohorts, you know, who, who are interested in having that conversation? And specifically, if you have the next question, when you ask this in a conversation, the questions are gonna be about the elites, right? I mean, the answer will be about delete, the answer will be about, you know, Citizens United, they answer or be about money and politics, and is that really democracy? That's the conversation that young people are having far more, I think, sophisticated than we might give them credit for.

Jenna Spinelle
The other person I thought about when I was reading your book was the work of Jonathan Haidt who, you know, in, in his book, The coddling of the American mind, and I think he's working on one now called something like, what's the matter with Gen Z, but, you know, he often frames this generation as coddled or fragile or because of he says, you know, social media, the influence of social media and you know, overactive parenting, but, I mean, I think that just seems to me to be a very stark contrast to the picture you paint of the generation your book is called fight. Right? And so I know that, you know, no, of course, no cohort is a monolith. But I wonder if you could help me square that circle a little bit. For you know, how to, is it? Are we able to hold these two thoughts in our head at the same time or, you know, how do you square what you see versus you know, that other framing

John Della Volpe 
I think we can hold both thoughts. I think both things can be true at the same time. I think that I think that over Carlin, you know, is something that is an issue There are facts right or element of this, by the way, you know, young people don't overcut don't cuddle themselves, the parents do their Gen Z parents raise them to be a certain way. Right? And perhaps that's part of the reason there's so much stress, you know, when they may want to have a different path or different approach, you know, then then then their parents on the question of fragility, I think that's probably where I have the most, you know, got a disagreement, right? Because when there's stress, you can do one of two things. Right, you can flee, or you can fight. And what I find, and I talked about, you know, one little element of this in the book is that younger people standing up for justice, I think, in every aspect of their lives, and whether that like, potentially, it brings me a lot of joy to see like, the difficult conversations young people are having at the cafeteria in high school, you know, when one person sees another young person being bullied, or being marginalized, or being kicked down in some way, the ability for that young person who is often very vulnerable, right, to stand up to that act of injustice. I've seen that dozens and dozens of times around around the country, when I ask the right questions for people, right. I don't assume anything, I ask them open ended questions about, you know, what's, uh, you know, what keeps you up at night? Or have you had a difficult conversation? And I hear this back, but I also see this and kind of in the broader perspective, you know, from obviously, from a news of the last couple of days, you know, over the last couple of weeks, you know, we're going to Wisconsin and Tennessee. And the impact that those young people have, all the way to this historic level of civic participation and voting like those. Those examples are not examples of, of a reactionary, fragile, coddled generation got someone who understands injustice is not willing to stand for, and is, I think, having a significant impact already. On our democracy. There's no question about it.

Jenna Spinelle
Yeah. Let's let's talk about Wisconsin, I think as you're kind of alluding to, that is a good case for, you know, Gen Z's increase in voting and organizing other forms of political engagement. Tell us what the role that young people play in the most recent judicial election there.

John Della Volpe 
This is part of the best case study of a youth strategy in modern history that I can think of, right, and the reason is, it was an off year, an off off year election, right, it was relevant, up until recently, a relatively obscure election for a Supreme Court. And with although there was, you know, millions 10s of millions of dollars spent around the state, a relatively small group of people, you know, and I'm so proud of him, Teddy Landis, who was a chair of my Harvard opinion project here at the IOP, who then was inspired to start Harvard votes challenge, you know, was one of the main organizers here and him with a team of 12 other folks and 100 campaign fellows who are paid a small stipend for participation, not only were able to organize their campus, the dozen plus campuses across the Wisconsin system, but they did so at a level of which no one would have suggested would be possible, which is the turnout was as low as 75, as high as I think 95 or 99%. What the general election turnout was just a few months ago, we had a governor and a senator, they're normally not, but even in the most conservative precincts, which I think might have been in Green Bay, the progressive candidate that they were supporting received, I think, a minimum of 75% of the vote. These are numbers, this is a second second row, we're seeing 7585 90% of the vote, going towards, essentially kind of pro reproductive rights candidates, Democrats, however, you want to kind of define that. And there was real joy in that for the for these young people, right. They, you know, there was some mentorship from former state party officials, but they really turned over the apparatus to younger people to talk to other younger people. And what Jenna I think is the key to this, is that they essentially did three things. They spent the first, you know, part of that campaign, just educating young people they had in a non partisan way I had nonpartisan voter guides that, that I think there were fairly significant. So some of them were printed. Others were available online through QR code. But just to talk about what the issues are, who the candidates are, in a nonpartisan way, respect younger people to do their own homework, right? That's part one. We don't do enough of that, I think, in politics today to really kind of, to help them young people think about how to organize their thoughts on this one. The second thing is, you know, they talked about the importance of this, you know, and the relevance of this and to make sure that their attitude was square in terms of knowing how important it would be. And third, you know, they did everything they could to break down the traditional barriers to participation. Yes, they were aided by same day registration, certainly had a significant impact on me their job easier. But when when Teddy did gave me a debrief last week, he turned, he talked about, like, the spectacle, that his peers were able to create, you know, from, from, you know, people running around in Judges costumes to, you know, several 100, judges gavels, on one of the hills, you know, outside the quad at one of the universities, and there was just real joy and creativity around this. And I thought that was just terrific, and a case study that all of us can learn from.

Jenna Spinelle
So, you know, the other the other piece of this when it comes to building political power is that, you know, the boomer generation in particular has been in power for so long and isn't going anywhere, at least in the near term. My colleague here at Penn State Kevin Munger has has written on this. I know, Philip bump has a new book out all about this as well. But I how do I mean, how, how palpable is the frustration about the fact that like, there is this fighting spirit, right? There's this, we want to make change. We're trying to do it everywhere we can, but yet, there's there's still, you know, but my colleague, Kevin Munger calls it the boomer ballast, right, that's gonna, like prevent this, like how, how palpable is that in your work?

John Della Volpe 
 It's palpable, I suppose between Gen Z and Boomers, but I think we're like, what, what, what fires up Boomer or fires up Gen Z isn't boomers necessarily. It's the system, right? And what boomers represent, which is like the institution and the sense of elitism in in money and politics and the fact that like, we've got several systemic issues in this country that aren't being resolved, or in some cases being forced, worsening, worsening, right. So that's so I don't think it's like personal in terms of Zoomers and Boomers. On the Zoomer side. However, what is palpable? What is palpable is the boomer Zoomer relationship. Right. So I talk a little bit about this book. I've asked this question so many times, there's so many different ways. And essentially, if you ask a basic favourability question right about whether you do like a thermometer scale or you say, fav unfavored terms of like the relevant relative like contribution, different groups, or making to society given, like their age or whatever. Gen Z has a roughly, you know, neutral position regarding boomers, right, some like dumb some just like that, we as boomers, it's two thirds have a negative impression on Gen Z 1/3 have a positive or favorable impression. And that's dangerous, because number one is their kids or those grandkids. But these are also like the young men and women who are sacrificing Public Service who are serving in the military. And on the front lines of so many things and to have such harshly negative views for no other reason other than a label, I think is is of significance is of significant concern, because I think it is one of the most significant I just think it it really further weekends. You know, one of the last institutions that used to have trust across ideological spectrum, which is the military,

Jenna Spinelle
And I want to just talk for a second about Gen Z and the far right, you know, here at Penn State we had leaders of the proud boys come to campus last fall it was kind of a big to do and so you as we just said there this this generation is overwhelmingly you know, more progressive than conservative but how are I also know that far right groups are very good at making inroads with people and kind of getting people on board and so how is that all playing out? Have you what are what have those conversations been like in the in the work that you've done?

John Della Volpe 
So clearly, that is you know, a concern in terms we talked about, like the vulnerable, we talked a little bit not too much about about COVID, right. And the lack of like, civic education, and mental health. So if you like, if you did a summary of the last several minutes of our conversation, there are enough pieces there that put in the hands, right of an individual, a group of individuals who wants to kind of, you know, prey upon those fears, and take vulnerable people into a pretty dark place to have some success, and they are having success, you know, one of the more prolific, you know, supporters of hate white nationalism, white supremacy, as a Gen Z group, right Patriot front, I don't want to give them, you know, more attention than they deserve. But that's something that came as like a branding effort, frankly, that came out of Charlottesville, right? We had one according to the justice system, when the more dangerous members of the January 6 insurrection I talked about in the book, again, a teenager, and powered by his parents, but a part of of Gen Z and breaking news. As I was walking over back to the office here, I believe that we'll find out that the individual responsible for the leaks in Ukraine, Russia is as a as a 21 year old Gen Z are from Massachusetts, you know, coming from an online community, that kind of spread information around kind of guns and racism, right. So clearly could exist. I don't I think the proportion of individuals who kind of fit those categories is much smaller with this generation than others, but it's still there. And it's a deep concern. I think that's something that, frankly, Washington needs to spend more of their kind of public attention on in terms of, of, of understand the psychology of these communities, because I don't think everyone's looking, I don't think these individuals, all of them, oneness, are looking to join a hate group, you know, or far right militant militia. I think they're looking for community, looking for camaraderie that they don't find some roles. And, you know, it can obviously lead into some pretty dark places. So we have to be very cognizant of that. Just just, as I think about this, one of the more memorable events.

Jenna Spinelle
You know, John, as we wrap up here, I guess I have two questions for you. One is you said at the very beginning, you study young people and politics broadly. So what how long were you kind of stick with Gen Z, you also say in the book, Gen. Alpha is coming up behind them? These are people born after 2012, I believe. So they're kind of hitting puberty age right now we're getting close to it. And then also like, what, if you stick with Gen Z? Like, what are you going to be watching for as they age as they enter? You know, their late 20s? The oldest of them? And, you know, go on from there?

John Della Volpe 
Sure. I get more inspired every day, you know, I've been in it because because, you know, asking questions, and just seeing how much optimism I think and hopefulness, you know, even in such a dark period, I think in our history that young people have not just on on this campus, but on your campus, and so many campuses, and so many high schools across the country. So hopefully, I'll be able to, to continue spending time with the young American gentleman who knows what's after that maybe, if I'm lucky enough to do that, as well. I am also though, like, interested in the harbor project starts with folks who are 18. Right. But to spend more time with with high schoolers. I think it's important from a political point of view, but also like, on the mental health and cultural point of view. So that's something that in the next year, I've done more of that in the last year than I have before. But continue to kind of understand eighth ninth 10th graders, 12th graders, etc. That's that. But I also think as comprehensive as our survey has been, we've done this now 45 semesters, expanded in some meaningful ways beyond its like, core mission. I'm interested in again, the questions around the work, the questions around what makes you happy. The questions are around, like, where folks want to live, you know, and the implications that have for themselves or happiness, but also politically, you know, in terms of work. So in terms of how they are kind of reshaping not just politics, but their communities.

Jenna Spinelle

Yeah, great. Well, I hope folks will check out your book and subscribe to your Substack. We'll link to that as well. I know you're sharing lots of good insights there. John Della Volpe. Really appreciate your joining us today.

John Della Volpe 
It's been a true honor. Thanks, Jenna for the time Thank you.

Candis Watts Smith 
Thank you, Jenna for that great interview and John for joining us and kind of bringing these issues to the forefront. One thing that stands out to me about why this conversation is so important is partially because just sheer numbers, it is predicted by that by 2028. That's five years from now, Gen Z and millennials combined, will make up half of the electorate. I think this is important things that we've talked about along the way on the pot is the proportion of voters matters. But they we also have to keep in mind, the degree to which there are institutional constraints set up by current policymakers, like gerrymandering and court decisions that will be difficult to overturn once they are kind of considered settled and common sense, but that it does matter what the size of the electorate is, and how important Gen Z is going to play a part here. But we also have to keep in mind the limitations that are set up because of these rules around let's say, voting, for example, there are legislators right now trying to prevent polling stations from being placed at universities, for example. But needless to say, all the trash that people talk about the youth, I think is an in part because I know how important that youth is and will be over over the course of time.

Chris Beem
Right? And it's only going to increase Right. Robert Putnam once said to the most striking euphemism you ever heard was that people were exiting the voting rolls, which is to say they were dying. And and you know, the boomers that's already happening, and it's only going to continue and so the the rise of the the Gen Z the Zoomers is only going to increase and, and you know, when you see how these, the issues that that this generation is concerned about, you know, it's no wonder that, that Republicans are anxious to, you know, forced at minimum forestall the inevitable as long as possible. The one thing I just want to say is that, I think it's really striking from a mental health point of view, that we have this, you know, pervasive sense of depression and anxiety, and that that has manifested itself in political organizing, and this will to fight, because those don't normally go together. Right, normally, depression, and anxiety causes you to isolate to withdraw. And that is not what's happening. And John talks about that. And, and actually, David Hogg has talked about that, too, in terms of, you know why that is. And you know, they'll talk about how social media has, you know, given them this, because they're so their facility with that is so great, that they just naturally use that to organize. And so that's part of it.

Candis Watts Smith 

I wanted to go back versus something that you said about for stalling the inevitable that the GOP, for example, is doing all these things and suggesting all of these things to forestall the inevitable. But again, just kind of thinking broader is that none of these things are inevitable that just for just as well as for Democrats, that demographics is not destiny, that the Republican Party could do something different. That's why it's not inevitable, but the issues that this that concern, this group, our abortion, our climate, change our structural racism and inequality. And so we have, you know, policymakers and representatives can present a different kind of agenda, that could be a winning one more particular demographic group, and they refuse to do so. So it's, it's not, you know, inevitable, but it is, I think, really important that we just kind of talk about the choices that policymakers, you know, put forward and then that people must choose among those choices. I think, you know, one of the reasons and I'm just kind of, you know, I think this business about the contradictions of, you know, depression And, but activism and social media, but empathy, I think also is simply because we are in a state where policymakers have shown themselves to be poor role models for policymakers, poor representatives, that adults aren't adulting. And the kids are like, someone has to someone has to do the work.

Chris Beem
This question of inevitability. I think that's, you know, obviously, you know, demographics are inevitable, right, we're all going to die. It's just who dies sooner? Right. But the question of how that manifests itself politically, is absolutely an open question. And I think Democrats kind of feel like this is in their pocket, but it isn't. Right. And, and part of this is because of the anxiety. And also, I think, you know, and this is where I think I'm going to get a lot of pushback. But one of the polls that I just saw, showed that younger people have an approval rating for Joe Biden, that's 36%. That's really bad. Right? It wasn't much worse for Trump, I if it was worse at all. And I think that bespeaks a, you know, I'm just gonna say, at a level of a lack of political sophistication, because, you know, while you can point to a few things like oil permits, drilling, culverts and things like that, Joe Biden has done more, with respect to the, you know, the Gen Z political agenda, with a really crappy hand than I think most people could reasonably expect. And if you're not aware of that, or not willing to account for that, then I think that presents a political problem. And we can argue about whether I'm right about that. But all I'm saying is that, if, you know, if you expect the world to change in these dramatic ways, in a pat in a period of a few years, then you're going to be disappointed in a in a democratic system. And if you're going to be disappointed, then you're going to be more open to more radical and more extreme positions, and not necessarily on a leftist or more progressive agenda.

Candis Watts Smith 
And so, you know, I think it's also important for us to really, and I think that John does a good work here is to show that this group, just as any group, and their you know, youth, when they're coming of age are mirrors to ourselves, we see that in our own homes, when your kid turns around and points at you, and says to you, the thing that you've said 1000 times, right, you know, you you that that same phenomena happens at a larger level. So if Gen Z is concerned about the quality of democracy, then we need to pay attention to that, or capitalism, or climate, or mental health or whatever. If they are really keyed up about it, it's because the chances are that the abstract values that we're trying to teach them and the things, the way things play out, the gap is so big, that they're trying to make sense of it. And so we need to be attuned to the fact that their issues are because our values and our priorities are not well aligned.

Chris Beem
Right. No, I mean, clearly, and they're right to say that when you have 80 percent, you know, you have a series of policy initiatives that have this around gun control, that have the support of over 80% of the American body politic. And yet, we have shooting after shooting after shooting, and nothing happens, that bespeaks a problem with respect to the responsiveness and the and the, the Democratic condition of American politics. And so they're absolutely right to point this out. 

Candis Watts Smith 
I wanted to point out one thing that really stood out to me and and John's interview is that he notes that Zoomers are neutral about boomers. But boomers are negative about Zoomers, and I think that's so dangerous and so bad. And people just need to grow up. And, you know, for me like that helps to make sense of what we see empirically. That why we don't necessarily have better gun laws, why we don't have more robust climate policy. Why we see a movement away from From funding and supporting public schools, is that if you the people who are in power are so far distance and also disdaining groups that are most vulnerable, we have a problem. And so, you know, I really just not to put too fine a point on it. But I just think that that point was so important and so concerning, around what, what, what our quality of representation means and what our quality of democracy means when we have that dynamic.

Chris Beem
So, you know, sometimes, you know, you may not know this listener, but sometimes by the end, we're kind of like, running out of gas. But I don't feel like that's the case with this one at all. I think we could talk about this for hours. It is so fascinating, and so important and such a moment in American history. So I just, you know, John's book is is very punchy and accessible. It's well worth your time. He is a great pollster with a lot of experience and such a fascinating topic and so important. So thanks to Jenna for a terrific interview. So for democracy works, I'm Chris Beem.

Candis Watts Smith 
I'm Candis Watts Smith. Thanks for listening.

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